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The New Kid on the Templating Block

The New Kid on the Templating Block

When Kevin Dangoor sent me the TurboGears announcement yesterday, and I went to check the site out, the first thing that impressed me was the page on the Kid template language. I just had to click over to the main Kid site to check it out.

The truth is, I didn’t really want to be impressed, because I’d written another XML template language that’s very sophisticated and extensible and all that, and I was not-so-unconsciously looking for some defect in Kid to pounce on. But there really weren’t very many, if any. In fact, as far as I can tell at this point, Kid appears to be (roughly) power-equivalent with my own PWT (peak.web.templates) language, but much easier to understand, use, and extend. It’s more Pythonic, too.

I’d previously been under the impression that Kid was just a TAL offshoot mixed with embedding Python code instead of TALES. And maybe that was true at one time, but it sure isn’t now. Ryan Tomayko has actually found a way to do constrained embedding of Python in processing instructions, such that it can’t devolve into PHP-style slop. And, other constrained embeddings in attributes, text, and TAL-style control attributes complete the mix. I have to admit, I’m really impressed with the basic design of the language, and very tempted to ditch PWT in favor of either Kid or something that rips off its design. 🙂

See, it turns out that in PWT I seem to have ended up creating another one of those XML-based domain-specific language boat anchors. I tried to make a language that was simple and very peak.web-centric, but over time it accreted more and more functionality that probably could’ve been avoided if I’d used a more Python-based approach. Although PWT integrates security access checks to attributes, and wrapping objects in dynamically-selected views, these would probably be straightforward things to add to Kid. Indeed, since most of the viewing and security features of PWT are implemented in peak.web’s viewing context objects anyway, in Kid it would just be a question of using those features, perhaps with a little API cleanup.

At this point I haven’t actually used Kid for anything, nor read enough of its source code to really understand its execution model. I gather that its templates are compiled to Python code for speed, which is certainly nice, but I suspect it may then lose some speed compared to PWT by generating DOM events rather than outputting strings. (PWT gloms adjacent non-dynamic XML elements and text snippets into a single string constant for output.) It’s not clear to me yet when match templates get applied – is it at compile time or execution time? I guess it must be execution, because there’s dynamic manipulation of the DOM tree.

And I’m not sure how I’d use Kid with peak.web’s resource system, which is designed to allow dynamic skinning via components supplied in eggs. That is, it should be possible to apply a layout chosen at runtime, whereas Kid appears to only allow choosing a layout at compile time. Although I suppose you could implement the dynamicness by having the Kid layout look up and invoke a function, so that’s not so bad.

I do see why Ryan considers the extends/match functionality rough, though. I’d personally prefer it to take a more PWT-ish approach. In PWT, you apply DOMlets by tagging child elements as parameters, and then the invoked DOMlet can call those elements like functions. This is less powerful than Kid’s match construct, in that the DOMlet doesn’t get to manipulate the DOM structure of parameters – they’re opaque. On the other hand, it means the template author retains control of their template, and the system can be simpler and do streaming output instead of manipulating sub-DOMs. I can envision a variant of Kid that’s generator based, yielding Unicode snippets instead of generating SAX events.

Yeah, I think I would personally prefer to ditch the extends/match pair. I’m not sure if Kid allows you to use “def” inside a “replace”, but if it did, and it evaluated the “replace” expression after the nested def’s were executed, you would then have a rough equivalent to DOMlets, although certain PWT features might be more awkward to express. (For example, PWT’s “content:is” would require both a “py:def” and a “py:strip” in Kid.) Anyway, you would just do something like py:replace=“domlet(arg1,arg2,…)” and use py:def=“arg1” etc. on the nested elements. Or perhaps there could be a py:apply=“domlet” and it would be called with keyword arguments for the nested def’s automatically.

Or maybe not. Thinking about how I’d implement DOMlets in Kid makes me realize just how awkward they are compared to Kid’s match facility. I think perhaps I’ve been blinded by premature optimization, because in my experience Python DOMs are slow as molasses compared to streaming text. The real difference between Kid’s extend/match and DOMlets is that DOMlets are designed to allow the XML content they manipulate to be completely opaque, so as to avoid any DOM manipulation at runtime. This means that the PWT language has to have a predefined way (“content:is” and “this:is” attributes) to identify chunks of XML to be manipulated, so that all the matching happens at compile time.

Amusingly, PWT is actually more powerful in principle here, because an outer DOMlet can pass parameters to inner DOMlets at runtime, whereas Kid is limited to postprocessing DOM segments that are already generated. Outer DOMlets also can control the parsing of their contents, allowing new mini-languages to be created. Kid can do this too, but apparently only by “interpreting” sub-DOMs, not by “compiling” them. So, PWT is actually an extensible language, whereas Kid is not. At first this might seem like an advantage to PWT, but in fact it’s only a (potential) performance advantage, because Kid allows you to create new interpreted mini-languages as an alternative to extending Kid itself.

Finally, I think Kid is somewhat more verbose than PWT, in that it sometimes requires multiple constructs where PWT only needs one, or explicit parameter passing that PWT does not. On the other hand, this isn’t necessarily a disadvantage either. Explicit parameter passing seems to make Kid templates easier to follow, while PWT’s implicit “current object” (stolen from Twisted’s “Woven”) has to be mentally tracked as you trace through subtemplates.

So as you can see, as I traced through my comparison, I found that each thing I first thought to be a disadvantage for Kid, turned out to be not so much of a disadvantage. I have the general impression that anything PWT can do, there’s probably a way to do it just as cleanly – maybe more so – with Kid.

Indeed, the only real limitation I’ve found so far is in error handling. PWT’s “content:uses” and “this:uses” attributes allow you to make an element optional, if a certain value is “not found” or “not allowed”, by trapping those errors during the evaluation of the path expression. ZPT’s TALES expression language lets you do something similar, in a more verbose way. Kid doesn’t appear to have a comparable facility at all, unless you emulate it by creating an interpreted mini-language. This is one of the few places where it seems like it might really be worse to have distinct mini-languages rather than a single extensible language.

However, the big picture is pretty clear. Just as I’ve previously ranted about Java programmers bringing their past perspectives to Python, I too have been bringing outdated coping strategies to my web templating design. My experience was colored by things like having developed applications that needed to process thousands of variable insertions and conditionals in a single page, and do it lots of times per second. (It was also colored by how shockingly slow the earliest versions of DTML were at doing them.)

But the applications that had those requirements were written to support “version 4” browsers (IE 4 and NS 4), and would most likely be done today with JSON and AJAX if the target audience’s browsers allowed it. Which means that the slow parts of the rendering would have happened client-side and not been a performance issue for the templating system anyway. Other kinds of complex pages – like portals with lots of portlets – could probably be managed by caching key DOM parts.

So, starting with the assumption that a templating system’s performance needs to be measured in thousands of inserts per second on commodity hardware may not be the best way to get a really usable templating system. Proving once again, I suppose, that premature optimization is the root of all evil.

At the same time, I’m quite curious about what kind of performance Kid would actually get with heavy use of match templates, and how it would compare to using XSLT or DOMlets. (Of course, if you can get away with using browser-side XSLT, I’m sure there’s no comparison in terms of server load.) But I’m definitely intrigued enough to want to take a closer look at Kid as a possible replacement for PWT, especially in conjunction with “dynamically-scoped” or “contextual” variables. (A new idea for Python that I’m working on, and which I’ll post more about later. The basic idea is somewhat like Lisp dynamic variables, but with the ability for pseudothreading systems like Stackless, Twisted and peak.events to easily switch the set of all active variables when context-switching.)

Join the discussion
  • Without having looked at PWT, I still found this comparison between PWT and Kid interesting. I’ve never implemented a significant templating system (I’d imagine everyone’s done small ones :), so your view into Kid comes from a different perspective than mine.

    I’ve *used* quite a few template systems. When I first saw Kid (January, maybe?), I thought the same thing you did. “Oh, a TAL knockoff that does a bit less”. In July, actually after a prodding from Bob Ippolito, I took another look at TAL and Kid. At that point, I saw just how nice a language it had become. Purely from a user perspective, it looked great.

    I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but AFAIK, Kid uses ElementTrees entirely, not Python’s built in DOM. I’m guessing the performance characteristics are different as a result. Kid is unlikely to be as fast as some of the other packages out there, but I’m sure it can be tuned. And, you’re right that more of the rendering is going to move to the browser. (Have you seen MochiKit.DOM?)

    Overall, I’ve been quite happy with Kid. In addition to the problem with missing values that you mention, there is another shortcoming that was brought up to me by Paul Bissex earlier today: what do you do about CSS, JavaScript, email messages and the like.

    Arguably, Kid is an XML templating system, so this isn’t really a shortcoming. Ideally, though, people will only have to learn one template language. I think it would be possible to adapt these non-XML documents into something Kid can process, but I have given no thought yet to what that would actually look like.

  • I haven’t looked at Kid extensively yet, just wandered over here via Google after watching the Turbogears 20min Wiki screencast.

    Kevin said:
    Overall, I’ve been quite happy with Kid. In addition to the problem with missing values that you mention, there is another shortcoming that was brought up to me by Paul Bissex earlier today: what do you do about CSS, JavaScript, email messages and the like.

    Random thought: Could you solve this by sticking the content in XML and using XSLT (eg. via lxml) to spit out the text formats you need like CSS etc. ?
    Or otherwise you could do an ugly hack and stick them in as CDATA sections.

  • Philip, reading this post in conjunction with your XML rant and your SCALE announcement, got me thinking about Quixote’s PTL syntax, and an extension to that syntax that I’ve recently proposed. The best Pythonic templating language is Python, or so the PTL proponents would claim (myself among them). My block-syntax extension reminded me of your SCALE work. I thought you might be interested.

  • “””Could you solve this by sticking the content in XML and using XSLT (eg. via lxml) to spit out the text formats you need like CSS etc. ?”””

    I was under the impression you’d just use a ${} insertion for such things.

    “””My block-syntax extension reminded me of your SCALE work”””

    You could certainly do the high-level parsing of it with the scale.dsl routines. Check out the docs I linked to in this post.



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