I’m not sure how I feel about web.py using my name and a quote out of context as an endorsement. On the one hand, they at least include a link to the original context, but on the other, they make my faint praise look much more positive than it was. My original comment pointed out various issues with e.g. its SQL quoting implementation, and also noted that “it’s about as far away as possible from something I would write.” While I’m flattered that they thought me worth using in this way, I probably would’ve been just as flattered if they’d quoted me saying “it’s about as far away as possible from something I or Jim Fulton would write”, and it arguably might be a better endorsement than the bits they actually quoted. 🙂
I doubt it’s a malicious misquoting, however. They also quoted Guido, including both his positive comment and his giving it an “F” for undocumented code and excessive magic.
It still bothers me a little bit that the quote makes it look like I endorse web.py, especially since they tacked on the fact that I’m the creator of WSGI. I try very hard to stay framework-neutral in my official capacity (such as it is). To be perfectly clear, I don’t endorse any particular framework as the be-all end-all of web programming. I believe that Python probably has the greatest diversity of novel web programming paradigms of any programming language, and this rich legacy is a treasure to be preserved – even as frameworks consolidate over time. It should not be lightly discarded for whatever the flavor of the month is.
As such, I found the inflammatory rhetoric and unabashed advocacy in the comments on Guido’s blog to be embarrassingly petty – especially since a lot of them were from people whose frameworks aren’t really offering much (capability-wise) that other Python frameworks haven’t been doing for years.
To a large extent, the newest wave of Python web frameworks are more about developer-friendliness than about innovation per se. And I have nothing against that, but sometimes I worry that it’s like working on the cupholders when we haven’t got fuel injection figured out yet. On the other hand, I suppose everybody already knows they’d like a cupholder, without needing a lot of explanation why it’d be a good idea to have one. Some things just “sell” better than others, due to their obviousness. A fact of life, but occasionally a frustrating one.
Could you elaborate on the “fuel injection” part you are talking about ? I also feel there is something missing as if put the cart was put before the horse.
A quote out of context for the purposes for promotion is next to a lie. I’d get Aaron to explain himself and fix it if I were you.
I think we’re at a time when we’re starting to focus on what matters in the situations that developers most often encounter, and we’re simplifying those parts with the new batch of frameworks. I think the result will be a better position to work from for future (more novel) enhancements.
History is strewn with interesting and novel ideas that didn’t go anywhere because of mundane concerns, and we’ve seen several of those in Python as well. In programming one of the major ones is debuggability, which is so often left out of novel systems. There’s other concerns too, like a complete development experience, and solving business requirements fast enough to justify the time spent on higher pursuits.
As for the quote on the webpy site, I think it actually comes across pretty much as you intended it — a kind of a compliment, but with reservations and acknowledgement of a lot of other possible systems. Maybe if they just headed the quotes with “Buzz” instead “Praise” that would better represent it.
Aaron Swartz is Aaron Swartz because of things like this.
I probably would’ve been just as flattered if they’d quoted me saying “it’s about as far away as possible from something I or Jim Fulton would write”, and it arguably might be a better endorsement than the bits they actually quoted. 🙂
I considered it, thought that might be a little too rude. 🙂
I’m happy to alter or remove the quote as you like, though. And I’ve retitled the section “Buzz” as Ian suggested. Keith, I don’t think I’ve distorted the meaning of his words. I only quote people out of context for purposes of demotion.
To Anonymous: If you have a problem with me, I encourage you to file a bug report. Please be sure to include the actions that occurred, the actual response, and the response you expected. I’ll do what I can to fix the problem in the next version.